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Kevin Davis in conversation with Tyler King

Tyler King

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Listen to Tyler King, CEO and co-founder of Less Annoying CRM on the Culture Eats Everything Podcast in conversation with Kevin Davis.

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Tyler is the co-founder and CEO of Less Annoying CRM. His background is in software engineering and design, but he now focuses most of his energy on the challenge of operating and scaling a mature small business.

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YouTube Transcript

Hey Tyler excited to have you on here with us man and and talk about how culture eats everything but talk about what you do um and and I don't even want to spoil the name of of the company that you run so why don't you introduce yourself tell us a little bit about you and what you do yeah sure thanks for having me I'm looking forward to this.

I'm Tyler I'm the co-founder and CEO of a company called less annoying CRM so most people by now know what a CRM is but if not it's like a customer relationship manager just kind of a database of a business's customer information um and so yeah I've been doing it for about 13 years my brother and I started it back in 2009 .

Basically there are a million CRM's out there it's like one of the most competitive markets in all of Technology but the niche we fill is um like people who don't want to be using a CRM people who hate software they hate technology they don't understand how any of it works and just kind of trying to get out of your way as much as possible rather than everyone else is mostly competing on having the most features and the best Automation and like new AI stuff uh we're kind of competing by not having all that stuff yeah that's a really interesting Niche to carve out which is um and and that's how we found each other.

I am a customer because uh I don't know that I would have said I don't want a CRM but I guess I definitely was like stumbling into like man we need something more and uh the more I tried lots of different things and so many of them like you pay for almost every single thing you click on and so it started becoming like man do we really need this and so I don't even remember how I stumbled across but just the name less annoying I was like oh that's that's hilarious.

I had to check this out and then as I started using it I it really was less annoying it was amazing so um I appreciate that yeah so that that's an interesting like contrarian form of marketing um and yeah so how did you get into that like was has the space been this competitive for this whole time that you've been doing it yeah um so Salesforce is the big CRM out there and they started in 1999 so 10 years before us and they're basically the the founder the creator of the software as a service yeah business model um so CRM was kind of the first cloud-based B2B software product um the way I got into it I was working at a different startup.

I started this company at age 24 so I don't have a ton of professional experience prior to this but wow I worked at one startup for a couple years before this and they just put me in charge of setting up Salesforce and I have a degree in computer science I like to think I'm pretty tech savvy I spent a full month full time just trying to like not not like use it just understand how to set it up so other people could use it and I never got it like I literally just went back to my boss and I was like you got to find someone else for this I can't figure it out uh and then you know it occurred to me well what if what about a dentist office or an insurance agent or someone who doesn't have me I say me I didn't even get it working but like what do those businesses do for a CRM um so there's more to the story but that's the basic thing that got me first thinking like there's an opportunity here yeah and and better utilize your skills and become an entrepreneur that's that's uh super cool well tell us a little more just like you said you started this with your brother so just personally where where do you live what are you up to yeah so it started the company in San Francisco and like a big part of our story is we kind of started as a typical like tech company with a loot like illusions of grandeur or whatever um and then kind of over the years we moved to St Louis uh Missouri which is where I'm from and have kind of settled into like the tech industry has this idea that you're either a billion dollar company or you're a failure and we're trying to like be a tech small business and there aren't really a lot of those out there there's a lot of small businesses in general but normally you don't think of a software company that way um so that's kind of where we're at my brother uh is also kind of we're both kind of engineering backgrounds um started together and built the product together and he's in Boston he's one of the few people not in St Louis now but okay yeah just kind of growing it uh bit by bit Yeah well in in Grown bit by bit talk about that well one it is funny to go from San Francisco to St Louis that's not thought of as like the Silicon Valley of Middle America but I don't think anywhere is so that's fun well what um yeah talk about the growth like you've been at this for 13 years so it's not new What's um what's been kind of some of the big mile markers along the journey for you yeah so a big huge part of it and I know we're going to talk about culture and to me almost everything from business model to product culture comes down to one decision we made which is to not raise money from Venture capitalists um the last start at like almost every tech company raises from VCS and it impacts everything about how the company behaves because now all of a sudden the whatever goals you had the goal is now to get returns for your shareholders um and so all the things that we do differently from other companies really come down to the fact that we don't have shareholders to represent um now in the early days in San Francisco yeah so the bootstrapping models you build a product and you just try to sell it however you can we're not good I'm not good at the growth thing but did what I could and you know in the early days when you when you have 10 customers it's not that hard to double to 20. um yeah it's none of it's easy no part of it's easy but you can like it looks like you've got kind of rocket ship growth going on in the early days so for the first few years I was like wow if all we have to do is 10x every year and dot dot dot I'll I'll be a billionaire soon um because we were 10xing for a couple years there and then it turns out that's just because we were dealing with very small numbers uh and as soon as reality sunk in it was like okay you can go raise money hire a sales team raise your prices do all the things that run the Playbook that every other CRM company is doing that's how you grow fast or you can just lean into still like exciting growth but more modest small business type sustainable growth and so we took the latter path that's when we moved to St Louis and kind of said you know we're growing so like right now we're at 19 employees um we've got 25 000 users so we're not small but we're also a fraction of you know the sales forces of the world yeah well and like you said it's it's not small and you found your Niche so where did the idea not to come not not to raise funds with Venture capitalists like where did that wisdom come from or that like uh scars you might call them the last company I that I said I worked at that other startup for two years I learned a whole lot there and I all some of it was I learned what to do but a lot of it I'm so grateful for is I learned a lot of stuff I didn't want to do uh that startup had raised just the Classic you know razor series a from Venture capitalists I was employee number eight I think they were at maybe 30 people a year later so really fast growth that was 2008. uh so what happened in 2008 everyone got laid off uh the Great Recession kicked in they kept the five cheapest people uh thankfully I was one of those five so thank you yeah it's one of the few times being underpaid actually works out uh but so for the next year I me and one other guy there I was kind of on the product I took over the product and he took over sales and growth and all that and we just acted like co-founders because literally like the CEO laid himself off there was no one above us at the company anymore um so it was a great entrepreneurial like I feel like I shortcut my career by 10 years with that experience but also a lot of my friends got laid off and it was terrible and I was just like the fragility of the business model and so many other everything I hated about working there honestly came down to the fact that like what I wanted was different from what the investors wanted and it's not that they were wrong they were they were probably running the right playbook for getting a good return on investment but like I don't I don't want to devote my professional life to getting returns for shareholders that's just not interesting to me yeah yeah super that's that's amazing because it's um like you said it's not right or wrong it was just this Clarity that you came to like that's not what I want to do um so talk about that what what do you want to do I mean you're doing it at less CRM in that way but but if what what is it that became clear for you that's a great question and it's kind of a deep question because the normal playbook for so there's the Venture Capital Playbook the playbook for bootstrappers like me is normally get the company big enough that you can sell it and never have to work again and we're we're that size like now's not a great time to sell a business but a year ago probably could have sold the company and made enough money to you know be pretty wealthy for the rest of my life if I wanted and chose not to do that and I think it just comes down to like it's kind of a fun game for me sort of that that makes it sound like unimportant I don't mean it that way like it's very important to me but at this point it's just like uh I can't think of something more challenging and engaging to do with my time so I choose to do this and in particular the like serving customers and making what you know when we get feedback from customers I still read every single piece of feedback we get every morning I have a summary that's like here's what everyone said wow that's great and even more than that not that I care more about employees and customers but like you have so much more of an impact on employees one one employee is so much more impacted by their employer than any customer is yeah that has become like a huge motivating factor for me yeah well that's a good segue into just talking about culture because when you say like this is so much more fun it's you know what what is this it's leading an organization in your case less annoying CRM you know it's not like that exists there's Tyler and there's the 19 people I mean it's the people that are the organization and it's the people that serve the customers so it's all people stuff yeah so talk about that when you say like the game of this like it seems like you've kind of figured out how to create a carve a a niche Out Create a CRM like that's maybe not as much the game anymore what is the game that keeps you going that is a challenge and fun yeah and I it's it's honestly both right now because like in the in the early days my background is in technology and product I love designing and building software and if you'd asked me when we started I would have been like my dream job is no employees never talk to a customer right just like like they they exist to give me money but all I'm doing all day is just building really cool stuff uh and I still like that every bit bit as much as I ever did and I actually have been making changes to free up more of my time to do that recently but at the time I thought of people as just being this like pointless distraction like you know why would I want to spend my time emailing with customers when like the way I can provide value is making the product better why would I want to like manage people everyone has this idea in their head of like everyone hates their manager not like literally but that's kind of the Trope right yeah and I why would I want to be in that role that everyone thinks is like an empty suit um and I what really changed for me is I have trouble having empathy for abstract hypothetical people but I like most people have empathy for real humans that I meet in real life right so with customers at change where like the first time a customer called my I don't know why I put my phone number on our website that wasn't like I I just wasn't thinking and I got the first call from a customer and they were like I can't believe you picked up the phone I've called 20 CRM companies you're the first one that picked up and I was like oh customers are cool all right and then the same thing happened with employees like we hired our first employee and I was just like this is a real human being who I like and I want them to get be happy and all that stuff and it just kind of naturally became a priority for me yeah is the people part which which I guess you said it is it's the customer facing side and then it's leading your employees and and growing what what is it that today like like you love your job why especially after 13 years um yeah I don't know like I I don't think most people would love my job to be like I think part of it's just I don't know I'm weird but uh one of the great things about bootstrapping and going slowly and like being able to fail without like make small mistakes without the company falling apart is over time I've just gotten to be able to make it exactly what I want it to be the stuff I like doing I do more of the stuff I don't like doing I do less of um but maybe more specifically yeah like one of the most fulfilling things is the team and the culture hiring new people like let me just give you a very specific example yeah we have a company tradition um that started when we were in San Francisco called Shabu night are you familiar with like shabu-shabu like the Japanese fondue meal nope um it's like it's a good meal if people haven't had it go try it out but it's basically like you cook Japanese Meats in a broth whatever the the point of the meal isn't that important but when we uh started doing this we kind of came up with this tradition that was everyone would like toast someone else at the table um and it started out there were no employees it was just my friends doing this but now we did do this as a company we just did it a few weeks ago and everyone just kind of toasts each other and says like a thing they're appreciative of and like hearing the employees say like nice things about each other to each other and just like seeing that they are happy here and they're getting fulfillment out of their lives like I don't know like it just doesn't get better than that you know absolutely well and then you know from my side as a customer too it's kind of funny to talk about it with you like to be able to affirm that going like oh there's definitely like good cultural things you guys have going on because every interaction I've had with people including you but before I was like hey I wonder if we could get your CEO on a podcast it was just very positive very like we love what we're doing how can we help you and so kind of it was tangible like I could I could just oh man whatever's happening at less annoying is great and their names less annoying it's just awesome and even and it just leads itself to really funny jokes all the time because we're you know if we say la CRM it sounds kind of like hip and [Music] um but but when I've been onboarding my business partners and and them around like here's what here's how we're going to use this here's how it's going to help us they're all like oh this really is less annoying I'm like I'm telling you it's just it just it just is you're bringing a smile to my face thank you yeah well no it's because it's really been um it's super helpful for us but it's that part that you're what you are creating that's so important so how do you like when you when you sit here today and you think like all right in a couple of years we keep at this and we've got a hundred staff what do you feel like that's going to require culturally for you to keep to get better at to lead yeah um so one this isn't quite an answer to that question but like a thing we've like my brother and I have talked a lot about that we're not sure of is like would we want to get that big um and to some extent it's not up to us like we're not we're currently growing but we're not growing at a pace where we'll ever be 100 people but you know that could change certainly um you probably know more about this than me but I've when I've read about this like I've read that around 30 to 50 employees is where the small business feel just has to change does that match your your kind of experience for sure yeah very much is like there's some threshold in there you don't know when you cross it but 50 definitely seems to be the high end of like you can't keep operating in the same way um and that's not you know it's not right or wrong it's just you're no longer small or mom and pop or but you can you can stay at a lot of the you can choose to be very conscious and intentional as you it sounds like you've been trying to be yeah I've heard that uh there's even kind of like sociologists have like if you study ancient civilizations there's evidence that this 30 to 50 number is like when do tribes have to elect leaders rather than just everyone shows up at a meeting together that type of thing yeah um so I will say like it's not clear to me if we got to 30 people maybe we'd stop not stop operating the business but maybe we'd say like how can we serve more customers with the same team but yeah if you go beyond that I think at the same time like when I look back 10 years I miss a lot of the things from the early days of the company it's a whole different vibe of just like I didn't have to have a schedule whereas now I basically have a nine-to-five job and stuff like that but it's always replaced by a new challenge that's worth it um so the thing I've been asking myself is would the would there be so many great new things at 50 or 70 or 100 people but make it worth it because I know I would lose a lot of the things that I love about the company right now yeah let's fair in it and I mean to be fair to you like sort of like the pandemic taught us you're trying to predict a future that you have no idea so you'll figure it out when you get there so talk talk more about the culture stuff when you you know that's something that you're obviously very excited about one of the things that you had said to me was if you had asked me 13 years ago um if this is the stuff I'd love working on what what is it that changed over that time and and how do you see your role today maybe differently than you did back then yeah I think it's two things um one is again just once you actually meet the people and see the impact you can have on real human beings it just it becomes real and it's the same way like a lot of people care about their family but don't care about a stranger in another state sure or like when people are driving and they have road rage they're mad at the car they're not mad at the person in the car um just meeting people it makes it a lot more real and I hadn't had that experience when I started so I didn't think I would like it the other thing is I just have a much deeper appreciation of how important and hard it is to to do the culture stuff because you know all the advice for CEOs is like get all the little stuff off your plate and just do the most important most impactful big picture stuff like if you're raising money for investors that's what you should be doing make strategic decisions on the product hire Executives don't waste your time on all the tiny little stuff and my experience though has been like the way culture forms is all the tiny stuff and it's just so I I don't know it's like it's a totally different Challenge from all the other CEO work and it's a nice change of pace from the big picture stuff I think yeah well it's interesting because because you are in a you know software as a service and the CRM Computer World I mean there's so much engineering and problem solving that goes into that but when you think about leading people and having to understand you know like you have to understand computers and software stuff that I don't get that make less annoying possible but to lead people means you have to understand how they operate how they work which is you know kind of an infinite game it's yeah so much to understand and Neuroscience keeps teaching us more things and like you mentioned you know sociology even even when you said abstract empathy like that's it's very true uh you go back to like tribes and stuff I saw this thing a few years ago that just talked about how throughout human history like we just aren't built to care to be able to care for everybody's needs in the world which is why headlines just become you know there's just we lose empathy for real people and real problems because we're so excited with it today we have so much information it's amazing but we can lose that empathy piece um but sorry go back to like getting under the hood and learning to understand people what what have you felt like you've learned whether it's about yourself or just about the people you're leading yeah um I think you made a great comparison between people and and Technology because like it's not like yeah I know a lot of people are intimidated but intimidated by technology and don't necessarily think they know how it works but if there's one thing to understand it's that it'll do exactly what you tell it right um if you learn how technology Works sure you just give it the command and it does it and that's all there is to it and like people are just so the opposite where uh and not even that like I want to command people like that's not a good form of leadership anyway but the things to worry about are so counter-intuitive like the things it's it's for example I have found just any time I want an employee to do something that's against their best interests no matter what I do doesn't work you just have to like make it not against their best interests if that makes sense like just all these companies have you know we're gonna we're gonna force people to work longer hours we've got crunch mode we've got this or that and I've just found any time what the person wants goes against what you're asking them to do you're setting yourself up for failure and that's the type of thing that is like so different from the technical side yeah well so how do you tap into that what is like someone doesn't want to work more hours but at the same time you need people passionate and excited engaged in the job so what have you found works

sorry I muted myself apologies uh yeah I'm not I don't want to act so first of all I'm figuring this out just like everybody else's but

one thing we've done from a culture standpoint that I would not have guessed in the early days would make sense is we've based our whole culture around um not so almost every tech company is going to do one of two things they're going to base their culture either around the business side of things uh marketing and sales especially that's what Salesforce IBM Oracle do or they're going to base it around the kind of technical engineering culture Google really popularized this we decided that um customer service was going to be the cultural Cornerstone of the team as a matter of fact half of our developers right now came from the customer service team and learned to code from there oh wow um so the consequence of this is by Google standards we probably don't have the strongest engineering team and I want to be clear I'm not insulting them because what I'm saying is they're good at a thing that Google doesn't value which is like intrinsically caring about people right uh and being able to like if I give them a design to implement and they start working on it they can just tell like I can tell that this thing isn't going to work and they'll come back to me and be like can we revisit this rather than just being like well that's the specs I'm gonna do it um so one way we've kind of gotten around this is if everybody at the company without any external motivation they just intrinsically want to please customers uh everything else kind of Falls in place from there that makes a ton of sense and almost seems so obvious um and yet we know is not that easy and uh definitely is not not always normal so how do you how do you back that all the way up then when you talk about the excitement of hiring new people like how do you find people who intrinsically care about the customer or do you find ways to instill that how do you how do you find someone that cares yeah it's not it's not easy but it's also not as hard as it sounds but this is the number one reason we left San Francisco because I loved living in San Francisco personally uh and I wasn't exactly looking to leave but there's this for people who don't know San Francisco well it's the tech capital of the world every like you go to a bar talk to the first 10 people you see they all work okay he works at Dropbox he works at Google like they all work at tech companies and everybody just has this idea of what a tech company is and what it is is automating away every single thing that is that requires a human so that you can reach the scale of a Facebook or a Google with a relatively small group of people um when we decided we wanted to hire a really great customer service people that was the first real hire we made a site like the first hires were my friends so I didn't have to recruit them after I ran out of friends I was like okay how do we find a stranger who cares about customers it was impossible in San Francisco not to say those people don't exist but it's it's a needle in a haystack type of thing okay interesting so we moved back to St Louis and it's much much easier so first of all I just think the culture of the place you are is part of it sure um the other thing is we've kind of built a culture around appealing to people who are really disillusioned by typical Corporate America um the type of person who would you know have uh you know a degree from a expensive four-year college and then go be a barista at a coffee shop like that's kind of our core demographic here okay um because that person has the ability to do whatever they want and they've decided that they'd rather not get mixed up in things and not all of them I'm not saying everyone like that is a great fit for us but that's a good starting point to say would you like a job where you can just care about customers and you don't have metrics to hit and you don't have bureaucracy and your days not full of meetings all you have to do is just try to provide value to the customer and that's it and there are a lot of people out there like that yeah yeah well that makes a ton of sense um because they've put themselves in the place to like Barista is a great example I still I still think back to my days serving people at Chili's which I hate to brag but I was a server for four years at Chili's but I freaking loved it like I could have made better money um I would I just loved like it's like if I was I think if I was going to go into medicine I'd want to be in emergency medicine like that just you're constantly turning over it's different um so it's interesting like the psychology behind the kinds of people that are that would be attracted to that type of job but you've been able to stay really crystal clear about what's going to be core from the beginning which um picking that and then sticking to that you know it's that good to Great flywheel like the longer you do it the better it gets and then challenges to to figure out what are we gonna say well yeah one of my big learnings about business in general but certainly this also applies to culture stuff is just there's a lot of stuff that doesn't work fast and so people try it and they try to go fast and it fails and their conclusion is that that plan didn't work and in fact if they had just taken twice as long it would have worked um so a lot of the stuff we're doing it works but like we're 13 years in making three and a half million dollars a year in Revenue to some people they'd say like wow amazing success to any Tech startup person they'd be like that's that's a failure like your investors will have shut you down by the time you get there ah um so just like it's such a superpower to be able to take your time and do things that they work over decades but they don't work over you know a much smaller time period yeah yeah well that's some good some good wisdom um that you've had the The Misfortune of a bad first startup experience that became a very fortunate perspective giving that that created that clarity so what would you say to somebody today who's Maybe sitting in their job um with some of those feelings and experiences of like this this isn't what I want but I don't really know what to do like how do how do you make that jump um yeah I mean obviously everyone's situation is different but I'll say I don't think if you looked at me on paper when I started listening serum I don't think you saw an entrepreneur um partially I don't think I had a lot of interest in it but also I don't think you saw like any amazing skills I'm like I'm a generalist I'm good at a lot of stuff I'm not trying to downplay what I can do but like as a software engineer I'm good I'm not great as a designer I'm good I'm not great there was no one thing you'd look at and say wow that that's someone capable of starting a business uh the one thing I think I did well that I think almost anyone can emulate is understanding risk and in particular I think a lot of people think that starting a business is a lot riskier than it is especially when they're young I'll admit as I get older and older I'm like wow it would be hard to start it would be harder to start now yeah sure but when I was 24 years old and I quit my job and moved to San Francisco and started a business with no investors a lot of people I knew you know they were trying to be supportive but I could tell they were like what are you doing like this is crazy and my answer was like if this doesn't work I'll just go get a job like there's no risk here at all really yeah um and I think a lot of people are waiting for the perfect time and they're waiting and it just it never gets easier it never gets better but the reality is you can start something and fail entirely and it's still probably gonna be okay right yeah because when you say understanding risk well it seems like the way I hear it and most people probably do is the opposite it's like he knew how to take the right calculated risk and it was like no it's just don't over inflate it also like yeah and also like the big Advantage small businesses have over big ones is you can you can try all kinds of stuff like your competitors are not going to be able to try all the crazy ideas you have so to take those risks early on when you've got nothing to lose sure sure well that's awesome man well I feel like I could talk to you about all kinds of other stuff um which would be fun but I want to just try to keep it to around 30 minutes so tell us as we wrap up like what's one uh book you'd really recommend other people to read or one like parting thought where you're like people just you need to hear this yes I've learned what is that can I do one of each a book and a parting thought um okay the book I'm going to do is called the mom test have you heard of this one no the mom test yeah one reason I love it is it's super short I I get so bored reading long business books personally um but it's basically about how to talk to people so they don't lie to you the reason it's called the mom test is if you ask your mom do you like my startup idea she's gonna say yes because she loves you um how do you get your mom to tell you the truth and this is helpful for sales it's helpful for uh customer interviews and it's also super super helpful for talking to employees because there's such a power dynamic between the boss and the employee I didn't realize this early on I was like I'm approachable I'm a friendly guy they can tell me the truth but they won't because they're afraid to um you need to build there's a whole separate thing about building trust and all that but the way you ask questions and the way you kind of hold carry yourself in a conversation you can get the truth out of people who otherwise would be afraid to tell you the truth yeah give us an example of that because that's that's super intriguing but like tell me how especially when you talk about the power dynamics because yeah it's so it's really hard to be aware of that um and how that plays into things so yeah um so first of all just an example of these power dynamics if people don't know what I'm talking about if you go up to an employee and they're like hey can I see you in the conference room real quick 10 out of 10 times they think they're fired it doesn't matter any other context for sure but yeah so like an example that when you ask them a question they're going to be playing politics even if they're good good people all that they're going to be worrying about themselves so you ask questions about true falsifiable things um so rather than saying hey I had this idea do you think it's a good idea um they're probably gonna be like well you're the boss yeah I think that's a great idea instead you can be like hey have you ever like have you ever Googled for this like have you ever experienced this problem before and if they're like yeah what'd you do what'd you do when you experience that problem they don't know what you're thinking yet yeah and they might say oh I didn't do anything uh I just let it I let it go and that tells you something or they'll be like well I looked for a solution I couldn't find a solution or I asked somebody for a solution if you just ask them factual questions about their real behavior in the past as opposed to hypothetical questions sure uh they're much more likely to give you the truth and then you can from that I mean the book goes into this in way more detail but you can build off of that to to come up with some insights you couldn't get otherwise yeah wow that's brilliant that's a great great book idea and the title is so funny because I'm like that doesn't sound like a good book no it doesn't sounds great yeah all right well that's a great book option all right what's what's the other what's the one thing you want to say my my biggest thing about culture that I'm not saying every like every company's culture is different you don't have to do what I do but the number one cornerstone of my Leadership Model as it relates to culture is to lead by example um and that especially means leaders so there's there's a book called Leaders Eat Last yeah I wouldn't even recommend reading the book necessarily but the title says it all like if someone gets a corner office unless you can give every single person at the company a corner office like I have the worst office uh you know and extrapolate that through all parts of the company if there's something that's not working for me about working at Western CRM rather than fixing it for me I have to fix the policy for everybody when I wanted more remote work I gave everyone more you know remote flexibility when I wanted an equipment budget so I could get a better chair I gave everyone that equipment budget uh just like treating yourself exactly like every other employee is a cheat code for building trust and having a good culture I think good and I like the reference to cheat code that's helpful because at the end of the day you know that's so much of what we're all trying to do is get a hold of like some simple truths that are so simple we can work at them the rest of our lives but they're they are that simple so just what's the life hack the cheat code yeah it's it's elegant enough to be that difficult and figure out so that's awesome well hey man I really appreciate your time really appreciate what you guys are doing that less annoying CRM um so if anything out of this you got great customer feedback for me but um appreciate your Insight and and perspective and just what you guys are doing because I think it's a it's inspiring for others not just Tech but anybody to like you know carve out that Niche create the category that fixes the things that bother you like what you know what if you flip the things that really bother you about work or corporate life or whatever it is there's gaps and sell sell your your time out your career out to fixing that it's pretty life-giving gives you a lot of purpose absolutely well thanks Kevin this is a lot of fun yeah take care have a good day see ya

thank you

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